What happened when someone wrote to the bishop…
Published June 30th, 2008 in Case studyJoseph Mattar, a young member of St. Paul’s Dandenong in Melbourne, recently wrote a letter to his Eminence, Metropolitan Paul Saliba, regarding comments he made during his Holy Friday sermon at St. Paul’s.
For those of you who have only heard rumours about “the letter,” you might care to read it for yourself. You can download a PDF of the exact letter that was emailed to the bishop on the 28th of April, 2008 here: Letter to His Eminence Re: plans for St Paul’s.
Avoiding the issues
The letter raised some very important issues, and sadly in his response, the bishop failed to deal with any of these.
In the bishop’s Holy Friday sermon he suggested that, since St. Paul’s has finished paying off the loan it took out to buy its current premises, it should now look to acquire new land on which to build another church with a school & child care centre.
In his letter Joseph raised the following issues:
- The perception that spirituality takes a back seat to financial growth in the bishop’s agenda
- The injustice of imposing a new, crippling financial goal on St. Paul’s when they have just earned a well-deserved break by paying off their loans
- The effect that this imposition has on the priorities of the church, eg:
- The continuation of the free-priest policy whereby St. Paul’s have benefited financially from the generosity of Fr. George in volunteering all his time and not accepting a cent of payment
- The need for church members to miss the Sunday Liturgy so as to prepare food for fund raising sales after church
- The poor examples that are being set for the next generation of young people
Sadly, the bishop employs the “shout louder” principle in his response to Joseph’s clearly well-intentioned letter. A screen-shot of his response is attached below (click to enlarge):
Have Your Say….
What do you think - Is the bishop justified in this major smack-down? Joseph has raised some issues that are of personal importance to him and which are clearly in line with Christ’s teachings and the mission of the church, so why the abrupt rebuke?
The bishop’s central arguments appear to be that Joseph:
- is being impertinent to write such a letter, and therefore does not deserve a thorough reply
- is ill-informed and knows “nothing about what is going on”
- has not been appointed to any position and therefore does not have the right to question the bishop
The bishop avoids dealing with any of the issues Joseph raised, and instead rebukes him for his impetuous questions.
Share your opinion on the issues raised by Joseph’s letter. Leave a reply below.
46 Responses to “What happened when someone wrote to the bishop…”
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I cant beleive, the Bishop has responded to this letter ..in this fashion!
What trigger this reponse by the Bishop?
I dont understand, why HAVE we lost good CLERGY in the past!
What is the REAL REASON?
Is the YOUTH…an IMPORTANT issue for the BISHOP, or the BISHOP is more focused on the FINANCIAL ISSUE’S of the CHURCH!
Well the Metropolitan’s reply is about as clear a case of the old “pot calling the kettle black” as ever I’ve seen. The second paragraph very succinctly states the problem in a nutshell; except in this case the folks at Bishopwatch aren’t in the nutshell, someone else is…….if this is typical of the pastoral approach of the chief shepherd of the church then things are sad indeed. The only trouble is once you guys start trying to get accountability out of the clergy, especially the bishops, then you’ll have hard time deciding who is the least accountable of all…things aren’t any better among the Greeks…anyway the placing of heavy financial burdens on parishes and the resultant spiritual malaise that this brings is a somewhat welcome change of theme to the occasional attempt to prise cash or assets from prospective clergymen. It’s a sad and sorry tale of a church that’s lost it’s Way and is too lazy to clean up it’s own house…..I would suggest that Fuaad and others contact clergy who have left to ask them why they did…it will be interesting to see if the “cone of silence’ has also descended on them when it comes to straight talking…..let’s face it friends the only place that despotism works in a religious environment is a cult or in a cultural ghetto……now we know that the church is not a cult…leave you to work out the rest……true and abiding spiritual life will not be able to flourish in an environment of repression and despotism……I want to leave you with an article I recently read concerning an unnamed Bishop
“I spent an evening with Bishop …….. before I converted and it almost stopped me dead in my tracks. First I was struck by the Priests and parishioners apparent fear of him before he arrived. When he did arrived the spiritual, emotional and collegial temperature in the room dropped below zero. The Bishop was snide, sarcastic, arrogant and down right mean to both his priests and the people who came to honor him.
A small …… boy approached him and the bishop berated his mother because the boy failed in some courtesy he apparently expected. He on everyone in the
room with disgust. I was introduced to him and kissed his ring, an action that I would like very much to take back.
Shortly thereafter my son (who was with me) and I hurriedly left the room. We were both shaken by the experience and dismayed for the priests and people who were left to spend the evening with a man who clearly was an absolute tyrant. I have never in my life seen a professed Christian behave in such arrogant, high handed, hateful and ruthless manner.
Since that time I have heard him criticized and excused by many people and that is mysterious to me. Often, when the subject of Bishop ……. comes up in a conversation his behavior is admitted and then there occurs what I have come to call, “the Orthodox leap.” For all of a sudden the conversation shifts into Orthodox code language to the effect that everything (even a wretched bishop) comes from God for a reason…the orthodox version of fatalism. Or, his behavior is excused because we are all sinners and in criticizing someone else we are failing to identify ourselves as the chief of sinners.
That “leap” seems driven by a fear and reluctance to call behavior what it truly is. Orthodox have a wonderful respect for the office of the ministry but when someone is pathologically inhuman and destructive to the faith of hundreds of people then it is what it is; it isn ‘t something else. And you can’t make it something else by appealing to dogma or spiritualizing with magic Orthodox words.
All of us fail to live up to the faith we profess. All of us will finally come before God in the last judgment. Until then however we have the responsibility to protect those who are suffering under the yoke of tyranny especially those who are most vulnerable. And we have a responsibility to call wretched and abominable behavior by its proper name, even when it is committed by a Bishop. To fail in that is a trip into irrationality. The Orthodox Church is responsible for every Orthodox Christian but every Orthodox Christian is responsible for the Orthodox Church. ..
Courage brothers and sisters…courage.”
You folks at Bishopwatch sure have your work cut out for you! God bless!
Jim
Congratulations on standing up and putting into words what a large majority of people have been thinking and talking about for years but for one reason or another were too afraid to bring up with His Eminence before.
I have been attending the Antiocian Orthodox church regularly since converting in 2003 from an Anglican background. I am now attending The Good Shepherd and have taken on the responsibilities of Sunday School Teacher. I must say that I was appauled at the response that Joseph received from The Metropolitan. When I read it and was asked what I thought I was speechless. I could not believe that our holiest father could not give Joseph, a “youth” and child in the eyes of the church, an answer to his well thought out and articulated questions. It appeared that Joseph was not worth the time of day.
If one of the children in my class or one of my own children asked me a question that I did not know the answer to regarding the church I would immediately turn to my parish priest and if he did not know the answer I would expect that he would turn to his colluges and in turn the Bishop. Perhaps it is that Joseph did not follow the right path to get his answers, but I beleive he still deserves them and I would be very interested to know what those answers are.
I have attended St Paul’s on numerous occasions and have noticed firsthand all of the issues that Joseph raised in his letter, the women cooking during the liturgy, the youth playing and socialising outside, and the financial sermons provided on occasion by His Eminence. I beleive St Paul’s congregation should be commended and congratulated on acheiving quite a financial feat. Does the church committe not feel that they should now refocus and apply their fundraising efforts towards much more important causes like donating funds to missions to help the underprivlidged instead of building bigger buildings?
I pray that God brings answers to His Eminence in order that a very confused and upset congregation may once again focus on the most important things: to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
Assuming that any of the clergy even dignify this with a response, I’ll leave it up to them to respond in proper.
But as a ‘youth’ member, I feel that maybe you might listen to someone from your age group.
What you are doing with this site is horrifically and sickeningly wrong. The Church is in some ways like the military. It has a ‘chain of command’ as it were, where each ‘rung’ is ‘accountable’ to the ‘rung’ above it. This means it goes like this:
God
Bishop
Priest
Deacon/spiritual father
Layperson
I don’t notice layperson between God and Bishop, do you? I appreciate and fully respect that you have questions and doubts, and no priest or bishop will tell you it is wrong to have questions or doubts (except where its excessively questioning), however you have taken completely the wrong approach. When you have a problem question doubt or opinion, you go to the person next up in the Church.
In your case, that would be a priest. Or your spiritual father; f you don’t have one I suggest you talk to your priest and find one fast, before God smites you for your disrespectful-ness and complete disregard for the last 2000 years of Orthodoxy.
I’m disappointed that your God-given power over computers and technology, has been used irresponsibly on this website. If you’ve got so much time on your hands, and such a questioning mind, why not help run and organize legitimate church websites?
Brothers & sisters, We would like to share a comment made to us by Sister A, We thank you for your input. An official reply by the team at BishopWatch will be provided soon. God Bless.
Sister A:
By embarrassing the Bishop and clergy of the Antiochian Orthodox Church what do you think you are achieving? You are simply giving fuel to Church haters and disenchanting the faithful.
Your work would be better served by developing positive strategies for the advancement of your parish. No parish in the world does not go through what you are going through - but their reactions are what makes them grow and flourish.
People like to go to Churches - proper Churches with iconostasis - not halls or other denomination’s Churches we borrow. But these things are not cheap. The Lord always provides - but we have to work hard to Glorify His name.
The sad truth is that we need the money to help to grow our faith. Take a leap out of the Sydney Churches - set up a religious items store to sell things to people after Church. This gives your wonderful ladies a break (falafel once a month or so) and provides people with items to learn about their faith. We sell Bibles (at cost price), prayer ropes, Icons, religious key rings, crosses (necklaces and for cars etc), religious books, bookmarks with prayers on them. The profit (and we are talking $1 usually on the items we sell for a profit) go directly into the youth account for the Sunday School - to educate.
Your site should be shut down - you need to start attending Church AGM’s to understand what happens with the money, you need to talk to your parishioners about what RELIGIOUS activities you want, you should work on holding events outside of Lent (don’t criticise get up and volunteer to organise it), you should volunteer to help the Sunday School (if you don’t have one visit St George in Melbourne learn from them and copy it) … find ways to give back. If you provide POSITIVE leadership you can make a difference.
I truly believe and many of our great Priests will tell you the same - that the good, faithful members of our Church need to be educated, and we need to provide that leadership. But this takes time - and we need to remember that everyone learns at a different speed. Some kids learn to walk young and others much later. It’s the same with our faith. We can not change everyone - whether they be leaders of our Church or not - but we can do our best to act in way Our Saviour, Jesus Christ, wants us to.
Your sister in Christ
a
There is no words that expresses my disgust in this website. I can not believe that you would actually put together a website that pokes fun at our bishop. Wasn’t it Jesus who said ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself”. I doubt you would like anybody making a website about you and poking fun at you and making up propaganda about you. Just think about it for one second.I am asking you please if you have one shred of human decency you will shut this website down.I can understand that you want to achieve better things for your church, but displaying a website which emphasizes our bishops apparent faults will not achieve anything and If you really want to achieve better things for your church, you will stop this website. I can understand what your intentions are for your church, but doing this is the complete opposite of what you should be doing. If you continue this then there will be consequences and I doubt you want to drag the orthodox name in the mud.
In conclusion this website is not helping anyone whatsoever, please come to your senses and understand that this is not the way.
Your brother in Christ.
a
With regard to the comments by “disappointed christian”. The church is more like a place of healing than the military and whilst the clergy are those entrusted with the medications they too are ill…..this is a great and terrible mystery and one that is deserving of respect…..when clergy behave badly they too need to be reminded of the right way….we are all a part one of the other…..none is righteous save God Himself.
With regard to Sister A’s comments about “You are simply giving fuel to Church haters and disenchanting the faithful. ” the good sister needs to be reminded that most non church people don’t hate the church they simply don’t care about it…the sin of this age is not atheistic materialism it is indifference towards the things of God. The other point must also be made that if people hadn’t have worked so hard against almost insurmountable odds in the Catholic church the abusive behaviour of some clergy would never have been uncovered…..it is no easy thing to speak the truth to your own generation and against the head in the sand syndrome that afflicts many Christians. I applaud the team here for their work, and while they remain objective and do not resort to cheap shots and ad hominem attacks on the bishop I shall continue to support them. It is far better to ask the question “Is this the truth” rather than “Who is saying this”……..the latter question is reminiscent of the dfamous question put by one of the first bishops “Can anything good come from Nazareth?”…..
Brothers & Sisters, we will post brother Sids opinion which he asked us to publish. However, if you may all please note that from now on we will not publish opinions received through the “contact us” link. This link is used to raise issues for us to investigate for future articles. We encourage you to sign up and contribute on the blog if you choose to participate in discussion.
God Bless
The Team at BishopWatch
Brother Sid’s Opinion:
I believe you are doing more harm than good. You should reconscider your motives and tactics before you continue to undermine the hard works of not only our Bishop but the thousands of people who work endlessly day and day again to ensure the works of Jesus Christ and Our Ansestors live on. Joe i hope you post this on your website so people can see this is not a one sided affair. Not everyone agress with every decision made by another person but we should respect and honour the head of our church and Ask the Lord Jesus to strenghten and guide him in all that he does. Mate after all its easier to complain negatively than react positively. And clearly you have not acted on behalf of all Orthodox Christians. I suggest you immediatley amend your motives so as we can all ensure that our church has a UNIFIED approach.
Sid Elias
I don’t think that I have seen one piece of evidence to suggest that this website “pokes fun” at the bishop, and where is the evidence that this website is “makes up propaganda” about the bishop? All that a man did was write a letter of enquiry and plead for the bishop to put order into the church and concentrate on higher matters…and what did he get in response? Read the bishop’s letter again….would you like such a rude rebuke from a man who is your chief pastor? Would you excuse that if it happened to you? The sad fact is that many will not be brave enough to call for accountability until they have personally experienced such despotic behaviour from pastors….this unwillingness to act courageously is symptomatic of the selfishness that characterises our times…..it’s every man for himself and to hell with the rest…and don’t EVER dare rock the boat by asking intelligent and thoughtful questions……What are the “consequences” that “a” speaks of? Further rebukes? An ecclesiastical court? A sentence of excommunication??? And all for what? At worst bruising an ego and at best a cry from the heart from a person who wants the church to concentrate on her spiritual life…..there are always those who will demand conformity, they do not wish to see that their pastors are human beings, they would rather think of them as having unique access to God and being different from other men…..they imprison them in gilded cages and then wonder why they nehave the way they do….This may come as news for some the Church does NOT belong to the bishop, nor to the people it belongs to Christ and He is God’s! The church is not the personal playground of any man, it is not there to offer adulation and narcissistic entertainment. it exists as the salt of the earth; salty, earthy REAL and in touch! With respect to Sayedna may I say this “do not take yourself so seriously; you too can be wrong….it doesn’t hurt to confess that to your people now and again…they will then begin to love rather than fear you…..you are not alone, be gentle with your flock, speak sweet words to them, gather up the outcast, do not demand “obedience” whilst putting little value on faithfulness; love your priests, pastor them, feed them Sayedna…and among the people hear their cry, lift their burdens and together joyfully enter the Kingdom of Heaven….” those are words which every priest and bishop MUST hear…….
It is irreverant to publically shame your Bishop … please read the life of Saint Nektarios and follow his example on how he dealt with “bad” Bishops. I am not part of the Antiochian Orthodox church …I am Greek Orthodox but we share Christ through the linking of our Patriarchates … this behaviour disgusts me when I confront it in my own church and it disgusts me here too. Yes, we have rights … but we have NO rights to humiliate people … in the love of Christ … What is going on with this world? If you have an issue with your Bishop …take it to your Archbishop …
I wish to add a comment emailed to me by my friend (SK):
““Scandals” occur everywhere.
Although these websites offer opinions on certain situations, and may provide some information to parishioners, ultimately they should question themselves whether what they publish will draw one more soul closer to the Truth.
If we become more spiritual then our priests and bishops will also be more spiritual. After all they are chosen from us by our Lord, therefore if we, Christ’s flock, seek Him and are close to Him, so will our priests and bishops who are chosen from His flock.
The evidence is clear, in the lives of the holy fathers and their upbringing, their family and communal environment.”
We are a CHURCH - that means WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST …a “Body” is not without its illnesses. If you compare the “Body of Christ” with the “Human Body” you can draw MANY conclusions on how to treat each other … If our “body” suddenly becomes ill do we humiliate it? OR do we go to a doctor and request medication that WE take on BEHALF of our body? Turn to God in your prayers for your parish priest/bishop … whatever …Do not publicaly humiliate him …no matter how “right” you might think you are … Humility goes a long way. God Bless. - Signed by Vicki
“For perverse thoughts separate men from God” (Wis 1:3)
We once asked Father Paisios:
- Father, you constantly tell us to have positive thinking. We would like you to give us some advice on how to deal with the following problem:
- Often people come to us to tell us that some priests charge a lot of money for performing the Holy Sacraments; they say that they smoke, or hang around coffee shops; they even say that some priests are involved in immoral acts, and in general, make strong accusations against them and present evidence to justify them. What answers can we give to people who accuse the clergy?
The Elder started telling us:
- I know from experience that in this life people are divided in two categories. A third category does not exist; people either belong to one or the other. The first one resembles the fly. The main characteristic of the fly is that it is attracted by dirt. For example, when a fly is found in a garden full of flowers with beautiful fragrances, it will ignore them and will go sit on top of some dirt found on the ground. It will start messing around with it and feel comfortable with the bad smell. If the fly could talk, and you asked it to show you a rose in the garden, it would answer: “I don’t even know what a rose looks like. I only know where to find garbage, toilets and dirt.” There are some people who resemble the fly. People belonging to this category have learned to think negatively and always look for the bad things in life, ignoring and refusing the presence of good.
The other category is like the bee whose main characteristic is to always look for something sweet and nice to sit on. When a bee is found in a room full of dirt and there is a small piece of sweet in a corner, it will ignore the dirt and will go to sit on top of the sweet. Now, if we ask the bee to show us where the garbage is, it will answer: “I don’t know. I can only tell you where to find flowers, sweets, honey and sugar; it only knows the good things in life and is ignorant of all evil.” This is the second category of people who have a positive thinking and see only the good side of things. They always try to cover up the evil in order to protect their fellow men; on the contrary, people in the first category try to expose the evil and bring it to the surface. When someone comes to me and starts accusing other people and puts me in a difficult situation, I tell him the above example. Then, I ask him to decide to which category he wishes to belong, so he may find people of the same kind to socialize with.
Hi all…
to ADMIN and Joseph- You have great skill when it comes to web-design and tools associated. i wish these had been used to edify the souls of your brothers and sisters. This, in my unworthy opinion, is in no way edifying… please think about it. what are you hoping to achieve?
what are the likely outcomes?
1-You successfully break the archbishop and make him write a more satisfactory letter in his slightly less-than-perfect English?
2-The people in a very patriotic show of love stand up and fight against the bishop forcing him to step down out of his position? Who will replace him?
3-Most likely scenario— You successfully make all aware of the bishop’s terrible letter writing abilities (not as bad as mine of course) and he refuses to step down. what have you then achieved? Bitterness, confusion, more people to judge, children are torn away from the Orthodox church because their parents prefer to go to the clean, wholesome Maronite, Anglican or lovely little Baptist church that always has much nicer and modern music and singing. We are meant to be of the True Faith
Did you go to all this effort because the archbishop didn’t spend enough time to satisfactorily reply to a clearly thought out letter that was written with best intent?
Couldn’t you have used this time and anger (its ok to be angry) and directed it towards an obvious need? examples:
-Ladies making Falafel? A delicious and welcome treat after a long morning fast. Why not order manoush and slice some tomatoes, olives, pickles… takes one person on a roster to do this and is still a typical and welcome Lebanese meal
-Kids running around? Why not make sure your own education is up to scratch, consult other parishes and dedicate yourself to teaching Sunday school or a youth discussion forum?
-Worried about your priests finances? Take half the amount of time it took to write this letter, go to your parish council with other members with the same sentiments and show them what your thoughts are. if they refuse to listen, raise it with a priest you trust. if he refuses gather your brothers and seek your bishop’s opinion with explanation as to why you have gone over the head’s of the youth council, parish council, ACOY, priests and gone straight to the mack daddy.
-Why not ask your brother/sisters how their parishes deal with these obviously burdening issues?
today’s epistle reading is so relevant:
“The reading is from St. Paul’s First Letter to Timothy 4:9-15
TIMOTHY, my son, the saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things. Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. ”
Please pay attention to St Paul teach with your actions, love, faith and purity…
is it possible that Metropolitan may have been a little tired, stressed, abused, bombarded, strained and overworked? Is he not human and subject to error and stress like our dad’s after driving taxi’s or working in the garden all day long?
My suggestion is keep the blog site cos its great but please add some positive material. Why do we not acknowledge the work in the Phillipines.
The very fact that this blog is classed in the “unchristian behaviour” category is worrying. Why have we taken the Judge’s throne and why are we dividing the sheep/goats and saying who is and who is not like Christ?
I hope you reconsider the purpose of this blog page and if you truly love your Church, your brothers and your sisters, please use it a little more positively and post some good stuff and just as ‘IXthis888′ described in Elder Paisios teachings. be like a bee. find the sweet Essence in a bitter surrounding.
YIC
Thisobey
I don’t think anyone here is asking the bishop to step down but rather to become more pastoral in his dealings with the flock. Perhaps Joseph and others are asking him to hear what they are saying…and what Joseph said in his letter cannot be faulted……the reply he received demonstrated that his cry was not heard at all…….reconcilitaion is only a heartbeat away for all of us, if a pastor stands on his own perceived sense of office and dignity then that is one thing; but in the end he will stand alone…..far better to actively seek out the sheep and speak tender words to them…..is that too much to ask?
Jim
There have been many sincere comments by a number of people which have questioned the value of this web site, and so we feel it is necessary to respond to some of the issues which have been raised. A brief summary of the issues raised is given below:
Time spent on this web site could have been better spent on other tasks:
There is great value in many tasks, and the value of doing one is not diminished by the importance of another. While the present value of this web site seems more abstract than practical, we hope that it will have a real positive impact on our church by promoting accountability amongst its leaders. We are also mildly offended at the insinuations that our time is not devoted to other important tasks in the church. These comments are made by people we do not know and who have no knowledge of our level of involvement.
The outcomes this website will achieve are all negative:
The three possible outcomes for this web site listed by thisobey are far from exhaustive, and unfortunately miss the whole point of why we are doing this. The banner graphic says it all - Striving for accountability in Orthodoxy. Accountability is our goal, and it is positive. Our goal is not to undermine the bishop, but rather to keep him accountable to someone. Who does the bishop answer to? The Patriarch on the other side of the world? God? Are we to trust that the humanity of our bishop will never get in the way of his holy commission?
We should not criticize our leaders but should rather focus on being good people ourselves:
Granted, we must remove the plank from our own eye before trying to remove the speck from our brothers, but I refer you to the “Is that a plank in my eye” page linked to from every page in this site. By ignoring the wrong-doings of our leaders we provide them with absolute authority.
It is wrong to publicly humiliate our leaders:
The letter written to Joseph was not an accident - it was a deliberate, while clumsy rebuke. To claim that the authors of this web site are responsible for the humiliation that goes along with making this letter public is somewhat unfair. Granted, the bishop would have gotten away with it had the letter not been posted on the Internet - but is that a good thing? We do not seek to embarrass, only to remind our leaders of the importance of their task, and the responsibility that comes along with the power and authority they have been granted.
It is inappropriate to bypass the “chain of command” in the church and approach the archbishop directly:
The bishop invited comment from the parishioners of St. Paul’s regarding his plans for the church. And Joseph spoke to his priest and church council before sending the letter. When the answer he was given by them was basically that “this is what the bishop wants,” where was he supposed to turn? Was writing a letter to the bishop really a sin? Further more, Metropolitan Paul has always made it clear that he welcomes feedback from lay people.
This web site is an over-reaction to a minor offence:
Again, the bishop’s letter was not accidental and while it is minor in the grand scheme of things it has given birth to something larger than just one letter. This web site is an attempt to promote accountability in general - not just on this single issue. This issue will be the first of many that will be brought into the light for public scrutiny and comment. This is healthy and will be positive for our church. We strongly believe that self-examination is the first step toward self-improvement, and this is what we, as Orthodox Christians, are trying to contribute to our church.
There should be more positive material on this site:
We are more than happy to write about the positive achievements of our church. See the page titled “Who do we think we are?” linked to from every page of this site. We have only begun to create content for this site. There will be positive articles in the future.
God Bless,
The team at BishopWatch
Thanks to Ixthis888 for the beautiful teacing of Elder Paisios. And thanks to Joseph for being a real bee! That is for having the industriousness to buzz around his church and select the finest pollen :
“The perception that spirituality takes a back seat to financial growth in the bishop’s agenda
The injustice of imposing a new, crippling financial goal on St. Paul’s when they have just earned a well-deserved break by paying off their loans
The effect that this imposition has on the priorities of the church, eg:
The continuation of the free-priest policy whereby St. Paul’s have benefited financially from the generosity of Fr. George in volunteering all his time and not accepting a cent of payment
The need for church members to miss the Sunday Liturgy so as to prepare food for fund raising sales after church
The poor examples that are being set for the next generation of young people”
These summary points from his letter contain the real stuff that produces a fine and sweet fragrance; a church that becomes focussed on her Lord and Master, a church that is not content to be a pale reflection of worldly institutions but rather is a mystical body of those who love Jesus and His gospel and give glory to God, a church where the pastor is loved, valued and is set free to minister to the people…..too many churches are centred on material ends…Christ’s church is a community of beloved friends of God who struggling together are incarnating a new kind of living, a kind of living that is markedly different to many in our society…..the church is not a building nor is it a fund raising society intent on the preservation of national identity to the detriment of all else…it exists to give glory to God and to shine as a light to the world…..every member from the patriarch to the youngest infant is loved and cherished by our Heavenly Father and each has their gift to offer much as the pagan Magi did when they made obeisance at the manger….but what shall I give Him poor as I am? I shall give to Him my heart, all broken and sore…al worn out by chasing my own futile self will…that is all I can offer…I will try and “keep my eyes on the Prize” and in the words of the old spiritual “hold on”…. again I offer the team here my heartiest support, theyare doing a necessary good work…….
Hi team.,
I have served my role as a servant in the Orthodox church. I have tried to demonstrate obedience (a number 1 rule for monks) by trying to protect my dad (bishop) from being slammed for being ‘clumsy’ as you say. I pray your actions are those for the salvation of your own souls and for those who visit this site. At the end of the day- you are right. We should remove the planks out of our own eyes.
Realistically though, this will provide ammunition to our oppressors and dishearten the Faithful. Time will tell and I can only pray that no souls feel compelled to leave our beautiful faith. God knows that you wont attract anybody.
And a rhetorical question before i go- did the martyrs and fathers of our Church worship the bishops of their times? Did the bishops of their times make them saints or was it their actions?
undeserving in His Divinity
Thisobey
Writing a letter to a Bishop is NOT a sin…no one is suggesting that. What we are suggesting is that setting up this website (as a reaction) is probably “leaning towards” a sin …
I think what we are trying to point out (and I should really only speak for myself) is that “forcing accountability” is in its essence pride and therefore not the right approach …if you care about what God thinks!
FORCING “accountability” DOES NOT reflect the essence of the Orthodox dialogue and principles, see much of what “thisobey” wrote … that User has explained it very well.
The goal of an Orthodox is to become a Saint and not a policeman of others …and you might quote the bible as a “rebuttle” to settle the “pride” that comes with the “I am right” attitude …however, the ultimate LAW of Orhtodoxy is LOVE.
Judas Iscariot was the accountant out of all the Apostles. He questioned Jesus about how the money should be spent! Can you imagine that? Making Jesus accountable? In essence what he was saying was not bad …he thought that the money would be better spent on poor people … but what happened in that story?
The POINT of mentioning that is that sometimes what WE THINK is right and what we think is ethical …even if on the surface appears to be right …might NOT actually be right …
Launching a full scale attack on a Bishop IS NOT RIGHT …no matter how “pathetic” his letter to you was.
God Bless you ..you mean well but you have NOT understood Orthodoxy yet …
I HIGHLY recommend …READ THE BIO of St. Nektarios …
HUMILITY IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES MAKES FOR A CLEVER MAN IN THE EYES OF GOD.
“If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?” John 18:23
To Ixthis888, Saint Nektarios was vindicated by a movement of the people which gathered 900 signatures. For the petition to begin someone must have been in opposition to the Patriarch and defied his decision. They then proceeded to rally 900 of the faithful to support them in their views which, I say again, were in opposition to the Patriarch. Today we have a Blog to be used for similar purposes. Just because the method of communication changes that does not allow us to condemn the act.
As for the story of the Fly & the Bee, Can I ask how this will be justified if we found out our friend committed a specific act of evil. Say for example they were involved in a criminal act such as stealing a car. Do we simply move away from them & make friends who are more like minded or do we also report the crime to the authorities as we are obliged? I find the suggestion that we cover up the evil, if any, a very hard pill to swallow, “but everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for everything that becomes visible is light.” Ephesians 5:8-14. I think Bishop George Pell is suffering today because of his involvement in covering up for a clergy member who was found to be abusing children. Covering for evil can be a dangerous choice and also a powerful tool by some if used inappropriately.
Again to Ixthis888, I have not met one human being who does not have both good & bad in them. I have met saint like people who have many virtues but always a vice ….. or two. It is good to be like the bee and look for the sweet spot on which to land but then we must also be like the fly and look for the dirt which stains our soul. When we find this stain we cry out to Christ “Have mercy on me a sinner”. Or do you suggest that we should ignore our own transgressions but look to the positive side of sin. I am inclined to believe that your extract is incomplete & possibly out of context. I would welcome the reference so that I can truly understand what saint Paisios was trying to teach.
I have not read a comment by the team at BishopWatch which I have found offensive and which ridicules our Bishop or Clergy. For all who blindly cast the BW (Bishop Watch) team aside because they believe the Bishop should not be addressed in this way, I refer you to the words of Christ. Our lord was beaten by an officer who judged that Jesus’ response to the high priest was lacking in respect;
Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
How many among you is acting in the same way as the Officer here?
If you find a comment disrespectful, point it out and justify it rather than attacking the concept of the Blog.
This Blog should be supported by every true Christian who loves the Lord and wants His name to be glorified through the actions of the representatives of our Church. Have we not lost enough good Clergy? Seven clergy men in recent times. Did they misinterpret the Calling of God? Were they not suited to the devotion?
For those attacking the BW team, especially ThisObey, why don’t you be like the bee and post positive comments about the deeds of the Bishop or clergy men. Surely that should be easier than launching attacks on the BW team. In fact if you acted like the preverbal Bee you might actually transform this site into a powerful beacon of light for the faithful. That would be called taking one’s own advice.
Forgive the cheek
With love
BIC
Hello again,
I would like to post a quick reply to BIC and then get back to my work … the point that was to be made about Saint Nektarios is with regards to HIS behaviour NOT the people signing the petitions. At the end of the day, God glorified Saint Nektarios for HIS HUMILITY … Dont you think he could have “shouted” his rights, caused a scene and started the petioning on his own?
The point is not about those 900 who started a petition on their own …
I need to read the rest of your comment more carefully and if I was to be FAIR … I should probably call this Bishop and speak to him in person and ask his side of the story …but I know better … I know that either way it does not matter.
Our Church has a formal process for dealing with issues … if we have a problem we should use THAT process …
Before I commence my long-winded response (to follow next) I wanted to point out separately to those who are administering BishopWatch, please do not take this as a personal attack against you. I do not know you and I do not know your heart. I feel that you are sincere and well-meaning but I dont believe that this is the best course of action …it has wider implications that in the scheme of things … are not good. I also want to point out that I have absolutely no affiliation with this Bishop, anyone of his family etc nor even yourselves … I dont even know what he looks like. I am Greek and from another part of Melbourne, I just happened to stumble on this site.
Bypassing the formal process of the Church and starting up an Internet Blog IS A Passion of Self-Will. God fogive me in Your mercy …
To BIC, your entire justification for ’support of’ is based on the words of Christ in John 18:23! I am glad to see (and I dont say this with sarcasm but sincerity) that you read your Bible! At the end of the day, it appears, that we are all well meaning and care …that is so important.
But, I wanted to point out that the Lord is in every right to respond to Authorities the way He so chooses because HE IS the highest authority (and therefore by a Structural Hierarchy perspective He does not break obedience to this order … since He is not responding to someong higher than Himself) … This comment alone shows that this is our example to follow - Submission to Authority. The whole essence of monasticism is based around the concept of obedience! Because obedience (so the monastics teach) breeds LOVE and LOVE is the greatest virtue.
I feel sorry for your Bishop. I feel sorry for any Bishop … Theh wear the “petrachili”, the weight of our sins on their neck … what a heavy burden to carry! Imagine carrying that weight … the responsibilities? Imagine that it can get all too much that in your humanity you commit a sin against your own congregation? Imagine that your own congregation does not love you back and pray for you instead choosing to fight you? What sorrow this Bishop must feel …no wonder he has reacted with “anger” … he has a congregation of flies.
I read the two letters. I believe Mr Matter has genuine concerns which he clearly expressed in his letter. They represent the views of a concerned individual who disagrees with certain practices in the Church.
The Bishop response was out of line and insensitive. Though he is right about the line of authority, nevertheless, he should have responded appropriately to the concerns raised by Matter.
I pray to God to lead Joseph in the right direction from now on.
I pray to God to Direct the Bishop to defuse the situation in the true meaning
of Christian Orthodox,as the only loser will be the Antiochian orthodox church
in Australia.
JimLuke, I read an earlier post of yours and wanted to say that I understand that it is very sad when the “personality” of a cleric is not warm … this happens all to often and is a true reflection on our luke-warm faiths! I do not put the responsibility only on ourselves but on them also …on all of us.
I did read in an old Orthodox book a story about a village in Greece. This happened years ago. It was about a village of a few thousand people who had a priest that they much loved. He was a good parish priest and they loved him very much. Anyway, one day he was seduced by a female from another village and left his church and to live with her in “a not so Godly” way. The villagers were devastated! Their priest - sinned! Not in a small way but in a truly truly devastating way! This is where I learnt a valuable lesson …and it has remained with me and why i am trying to encourage you all to keep to the structure of obedience and be like the BEES and not the FLIES … This is what the villagers did … the Mayor of the village convened a village “crisis” meeting if you like … they then decided that rather than report their priest they would hold all night prayer services BEGGING God for His mercy and to forgive their priest …and begging God that he might return. This kept going for a while (their prayers).
One day, this priest returned …repentant. When asked what happened …(this part i dont remember) he mentioned that XYZ (I honestly dont remember if he had a vision or what) but whatever it was …he had realisedd the ‘error of his way’ and returned.
The point was through the love and the prayers of the laity a truly sinful priest returned back to the church - in repentance (Metanoia) and the rest is history that serves as an example …
I find this to be quite interesting and I do have some questions of the owner of this site and the admin team.
1. Is everyone involved in this site from St Paul’s perish and how often do you attend your church services (make every member of the admin team known to all)?
2. Have you any proof of the concerns that are pointed out in your letter to the bishop (eg. Do you have written statements from the people working in the kitchen that they are complaining to you or the financial stress that you point out do you have any written statements stating that this burden has affected any congregation member).
3. What are your contributions to St Paul’s parish? (As you have been a member since the conception of St Paul church you must have had many contributions to the building of the church as it stands today) please state your good work.
4. Have you submitted solutions for the points that where highlighted in your letter to the bishop?
5. Who holds you accountable for your Christian religious actions?
We need to now the lead up to this situation and the reason that you have received such a reply letter (was this letter that you wrote properly exercised or is this just a thought on the mind of one)? It seems that the letter that you Wrote is an opinion as it is stated in the first line of your letter,(quote: I write to you to express my opinion. Unquote, then the letter goes on to tell the Bishop how you believe he should behave, however if you have exercised the points I have pointed out to you in my questions and you have proof of these then you should post on your site your research and proof of your opinion so that this site will build credibility. As it stands now this has no credibility what so ever.
I think it is important that these questions be answered by the admin team of this site before this issue can be taken seriously, reason being that they are questioning a person that has dedicated there entire life to Jesus and not a web site with all due respect.
The questions that are asked here are to determine whether this is a worthy act of good faith or is this just a (PLOY TO DESTROY).
Prove to us your accountability before asking the accountability of a respected man.
God bless
Whoru06
This will be my last post as I don’t feel that this is edifying to my soul or to making progress.
I would like to quickly answer some questions in regards to BIC.
*BIC asks:*
“Do we simply move away from them & make friends who are more like minded or do we also report the crime to the authorities as we are obliged?”
*Thisobey said in previous post:*
“Take half the amount of time it took to write this letter, go to your parish council with other members with the same sentiments and show them what your thoughts are. if they refuse to listen, raise it with a priest you trust. if he refuses gather your brothers and seek your bishop’s opinion with explanation as to why you have gone over the head’s of the youth council, parish council, ACOY, priests and gone straight to the mack daddy.”
If this fails ill help you set up a blog page
*BIC says:*
“It is good to be like the bee and look for the sweet spot on which to land but then we must also be like the fly and look for the dirt which stains our soul. When we find this stain we cry out to Christ “Have mercy on me a sinner”. ”
*Thisobey*
Christ does not teach to pro-actively seek sins just so we can seek forgiveness. We are called to be saints and aim to be like Christ but with a little “C”. We overcome the ‘dirt’ just as prescribed in the teachings of St John of the Climax and the ladder. The fly and the bee are metaphors like Christ’s parables, they are not literal, but a simple teaching. No need to over-analyse… the extract by IXthis888’s is clear, but reading elder Fr Paisios teachings will be good for you.
*BIC says:*
“If you find a comment disrespectful, point it out and justify it rather than attacking the concept of the Blog.”
*Thisobey said in previous post:*
“The very fact that this blog is classed in the “unchristian behaviour” category is worrying. Why have we taken the Judge’s throne and why are we dividing the sheep/goats and saying who is and who is not like Christ?
I hope you reconsider the purpose of this blog page and if you truly love your Church, your brothers and your sisters, please use it a little more positively and post some good stuff and just as ‘IXthis888′ described in Elder Paisios teachings. be like a bee. find the sweet Essence in a bitter surrounding.”
Thisobey also adds- The reason why no body else is posting positive comments is because this is what http://www.aoarch.org.au is for and by posting these things on this unofficial blog is in support of a rapid and extreme measure that was driven by emotion rather the Holy Spirit.
*BIC says*
“Have we not lost enough good Clergy? Seven clergy men in recent times. Did they misinterpret the Calling of God? Were they not suited to the devotion?”
*Thisobey says*
Assuming this is true (and there is nothing at my disposal to prove/disprove this) there is a reason why they haven’t stood up in public as BW have. And even then only young Joe has stood up in public. The admin of this site are still sitting. (”administration” seems a fitting title.)
Is it possible that any of ’seven clergy men in recent times’ were asked to leave for not doing the right thing by the church or are we automatically assuming that they don’t like their bishop? Prob not the case, but a good example of not judging a book by its cover.
**BROTHERS AND SISTERS**- ignore this blog until it is made good for your soul. Instead invest your effort in working with the youth of your parishes. We have many honey pots of gold in a barren world… actively seek them.
BIC and Jimluke (by the way Jimluke, you seem heavily associated with the BW agenda. You take a very non-Orthodox aggressive and under-cover approach) everything i write, i do so with a smile and i say because i love you and with the hope of waking up those who are angry to re-direct their emotions into something positive… not just the folk at BW. For the last time… keep the blog, seek pardon, ask the blessing and make it good for all of us. God knows we need good websites for our churches.
The bishop is the head of the church. We are the body- If you stop working because your angry with your head, then the Church will stop moving. (My head is not very pretty, but that does not stop me from smiling)
With love for His bountiful blessings,
Thisobey
I lied- this is my last reply:
IXthis888 you are a person of wisdom. Your statement really hit home: A PERFECT SUMMARY- “Imagine that your own congregation does not love you back and pray for you instead choosing to fight you? What sorrow this Bishop must feel …no wonder he has reacted with “anger” … he has a congregation of flies.”
This was so true, all i could do was laugh. I am a loud blowfly compared to my brothers and sisters— but i like honey.
Whoru06- very valid questions…
May God’s grace be upon you and your obvious concern for our Faith. I will pray for you all
IC
Thisobey
Joseph’s letter was a letter to express an opinion, a letter to outline issues and to highlight potential solutions to address those issues. Joseph’s view was looking at developing a better community, a closer community and a community that was looking to the future for its children and for the development of St Paul’s Church.
I was shocked to read Metropolitan Paul Saliba’s response to Joseph. I was appalled that Metropolitan Paul Saliba could:
1. Label someone “Jesus”
2. Judge a person based on a letter or personal opinion
3. Mention “St Paul have a priest and a church council. They are responsible and not the knowledgeable one “you””
By responding in the way that he did, Metropolitan Paul Saliba has just clearly demonstrated that:
1. He is arrogant and misinformed
2. He (Metropolitan Paul Saliba) is allowed to be judgemental - “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (1 Cor 6:2)
3. Metropolitan Paul Saliba’s decisions and directions should be listened to and followed by all without considering other’s opinions
My question to everyone and to Metropolitan Paul Saliba is: Where would St Paul’s Church be without the people that attend the Liturgy, that commit financially and spiritually and the people that are passionate, such as Joseph, about their church to ensure it is heading in the right direction? The people have a say in their church. What would a church be with a priest and a bishop but no people? In Quebec churches are being closed down as people have stopped attending.
I have been attending St Paul’s Church for sometime now and the only time I have seen Metropolitan Paul Saliba is during the holiest times of the year. Ask yourself, is this attendance enough for someone to abolish/write off an opinion of a devoted practicing orthodox that attends week in/week out?
Very well said “Whoru06″. Your thinking is what any individual would expect in a Working environment. My concern with this site is with the “journalism” of the articles … it “paints” a picture without all the components of the puzzle in place and what is the MOST concerning is that MOST people who are reading this thread - jump to the conclusion that the Bishop is “bad”. Without knowing the prior history of the relationship between the person/people of this site and him specifically. I asked myself the question, why would an educated “Bishop” respond so ‘abruptly’ to a youth …and I tried to put as many possibilities forward … For someone in an ‘authority’ position to reply so ‘bluntly’ perhaps suggests that the person/s could have been previously “annoying him”. Also, though well written, the letter to the Bishop is a little ‘high and mighty’ implying that they know better on how to run the church …which then begs the question, if this person knows better why where they not appointed by God to be the Bishop.
I think dialogue is encouraged by the Bishops of our Church but only if the dialogue is done in the right way. Our Archbishop (Stylianos), the poor thing, is treated like a dog by various members of our church …uneducated men/women who constantly question him about X,Y and Z and constantly criticise him as a person who does not know what he is doing - YET, he is capable of holding an audience of over 100 authorities from other churches (Anglican, Catholic etc) with THEIR respect (albeit in principle each party has differing points of view). And I wonder, how can he hold the attention and the respect of some of the most influential and revered leaders of the world and Kura Maria and good old George from the youth group thinks THEY KNOW better
This dialogue is fun. Have a blessed evening you all …
Interesting comment from whoru06 “reason being that they are questioning a person that has dedicated there entire life to Jesus “….I was under the impression that Holy Baptism made a person a new creation in Christ and that ALL of every believer’s life is dedicated to Jesus. This needless dividing of people within the church, the kind of attitude that leads to a clerical caste and is destructive of the koinonia we have in Christ as brothers and sisters….I get the point of whru06’s question but I would ask us all to just stop a moment and contemplate the notion that somehow or other we aren’t all dedicating our lives to Christ….I think thast sadly many, many people in the church are bewitched with the idea that the clergy are the professionally religious men who “know” and that the people are amateurs and don’t “know”…yet this knowing this gnosis is what every spiritual struggler seeks to uncover…sure the clergy are there to assist in this and there are some utterly extraordinary holy men among them….,but, and it is a BIG but there are also many, many plodders just like you and me that have to fight every inch of the way to hold onto their faith….I ask you to think on this: how long is it since your priest or bishop asked you about your spritual life (and I don’t mean about how many prayers you say or other technicalities) about your spiritual state and it’s GROWTH, your growing awareness of the sacred, your experience of the Lord’s Presence His blazing shekinah????? Sadly many of our folk remain spiritually infantile because they have stopped dead on the royal road. There seems to be none to gently guide them along……Prayer life is often presented as the ability to endure long church services for long hours, often in an unintelligible language and that somehow makes you “spiritual”…Where are the doctors of the soul???? Has orthodoxy been reduced to an intellectual set of dogmatic propositions, an inner “feeling” that we believe the “right” things??? Is that what the faith is all about??? Well that might do for those who want belief…..but faith is an entirely different matter……
Peace
Jim
Joseph’s letter is anything but “high and mighty”….I can write y’all a high and mighty letter and you can see the difference but why bother
Jesus was also High and Mighty in the best meaning of the words……As I wrote earlier stop asking who said this but rather ask if what is said is truthful? Please show us where Joseph’s request is in error? Was it in the part about getting ladies out of the kitchen and into the Liturgy? Or maybe about fasting foods only being served on fasting days??? I must admit you made me laugh when you you said how Abp Stylianos can hold an audience of over 100 authorities from other churches…I am quite sure he can; no doubt about it…. but how many non Greek clergy can he hold?
Peace
Jim
ps I support the agenda of ANYONE who loves the Truth for It’s sake too!
In response to the comment by thisobey, we have taken this article out of the contentious category. We accept his argument that the category was judgemental.
Whoru06 asks somewhat legitimate questions which we will answer.
His/her questions go to the accountability of the BishopWatch team. First of all, I think that my reply here itself is evidence of our accountability. I have made my opinions public and have opened myself up for public comment and scrutiny. If that’s not accountability, then I don’t know what is. To put it another way. The same accountability that I ask to be directed at the Bishop, is also directed at me.
On the issue of credibility I would say this: the contributions I have made to St. Paul’s parish are known to the people of St. Paul’s, but are simply not relevant to the credibility of this site. In the same way, the identity of the other people involved in maintaining this site is not relevant. Evidence of what I am concerned about at St. Paul’s is certainly relevant, but asking for written complaints from people at the church is a red herring. The point made in my letter was that requiring people to miss liturgy in order to fund-raise is detrimental to them - regardless of whether they complain or not. Furthermore, the problem (which I do not believe is isolated to St. Paul’s) is one of cultural change, as mentioned in the letter: “the culture of the church has changed over the last four years away from the spiritual end of the spectrum to an aggressive financial agenda.” It is this cultural change I complain about, and I believe that it comes from the top down. Evidence of this cultural change has already been presented anecdotally in my letter, which I encourage you to read again.
However, my opinions are my own. I am not so proud as to believe that I am a prophet or that I am in charge of the church. The purpose of this web site is to create accountability for our leaders. I do not pretend that they are accountable to BishopWatch, but rather to all of you - those reading this web site, and the rest of the people in the Orthodox church. This site clearly does not contain only our own opinions - our article is but a fraction of the words written on this page.
Also, my personal responsibilities differ greatly from those of the Metropolitan. He is responsible for the entire Antiochian Orthodox church in Australia, New Zealand, The Philippines & Dependencies. I am responsible for this web site, and by your comments you keep my team and I accountable for it. Incidentally, we would like to reiterate our position that this web site is not a “ploy to destroy.” All we are calling for is accountability.
Finally, while I, Joseph Mattar, have revealed my identity, you all have the luxury of anonymity. To be questioned so accusingly about my accountability by someone who themselves remains anonymous certainly seems hypocritical.
God Bless
Now that many people have had an opportunity to contribute to what has been a very balanced debate on the issues raised by this article, we feel that further discussion will not be fruitful. In the interests of fairness we will leave comments open until 8pm AEST today (10th of July).
We extend an invitation to the Metropolitan to also respond to this article, and of course we will accept any contributions from him even after comments are closed.
God Bless & Thank You for your participation.
What st Pauls church means to me
Hi all, what I am about to write may not have much relevance to any of this but some of the things I have read have got to me, I guess I just don’t like seeing my church being dragged through the mud so I would like to inform you all about what st Pauls church means to me and what it has done in my life. Before I start I would like to say that I am a very simple person, I’m not good with “big” and “fancy” words, I don’t speak metaphorically but rather just want to share my views on why I love my church so much. Although the piece may be simple I do speak from the heart. I hope you can understand and don’t get the wrong idea about why I am writing this.
When I was a child and Sunday mornings came and I heard mum and dad talking about going to church, I would always pretend I never heard it, I didn’t like church, it was boring for me, it went for so long, and it was Sunday which meant video hits, video games, my BMX, football, soccer, basketball, any form of entertainment I could fit in one day before another week of school.
I drifted away from the church at the start of my teen years, I forgot all about church, and my life took some pretty bad turns, I was lost, I had no guidance in life, my parents were great don’t get me wrong, but ofcourse I didn’t wanna listen, I was constantly doing stupid things, taking the wrong turns in life, always thinking I was better, always thinking that I knew better than my parents (how wrong I was) constantly arguing, fighting, being non appreciative of so many things, if I didn’t like what was for dinner, I would throw my food away and yell at my mum, took everything I had for granted, got into fights at school, bullied, thought I was invincible, cheated, lied and a lot of other things that I won’t mention. I’m sure you all get the drift. I went throughout my teen years with no spiritual guidance, I was careless, didn’t care for my studies, only enough to pass but even then I was cheating and going about it the wrong way. My life was a complete mess, physically, spiritually, mentally, in every form.
When I was in my late teens St Pauls was established and from then I started to attend church, I have watched St Pauls grow along with my peers who somewhat can relate to my life with no church, I have made many friends through the church, I have learnt so much from the church, from Fr. George, from the sermons, and I thank the lord everyday for the church and what it has done to change my life. To me St Pauls church has actually done more than change my life but rather I fully believe that it has saved it, through the church I have learnt so much from other youth and from the priests that I have talked to, through st Pauls I have learnt how to pray, I have learnt how to be patient, how to trust in god and learnt to believe that he has control over everything, how to love, how to forgive, to remember not take things granted in life,(my sight, my hearing, food, friends, parents my house, getting up and being able to put 2 feet on the ground and walk, i have learnt to thank god for all this, everyday when i wake up from sleep I see this as a blessing) I am still learning and I’m not saying I’m perfect, I actually know I’m far from it and i never will be perfect but I will always try my best, I know for a fact that god has touched my life, and this all started when I started attending st Pauls church, for anyone who has been to the church you cannot deny the amazing feel the church has. To me the church just so beautiful to attend after a long week of work, to enter the church with something troubling on your mind, and then the answer being spoken to you through the sermon is not coincidence, I don’t believe in coincidence anymore. Ofcourse all I have written is only a small fragment of how the church and our lord have helped me.
The reason I am writing all this is because I don’t appreciate my church being somewhat talked about in a negative manner, it actually hurts me, cause it has done so much in my life, the lord has done so much in my life, he has guided me, and through the church helped me to grow, learn, mature… and to genuinely, from the heart,… want to help others. I ask the lord to guide me all the time, with everything I do, I love him so much as I love my church so much, and although a lot of you may be able to relate to some of the things I say, you will never be able to fully understand what I feel or have felt by being closer to the church and to the lord I can only ever try to explain through what I write.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please keep in mind that a lot of things on this website are very offensive to St Pauls, The church has done nothing but help my life improve, and I hope for those who cannot relate that one day you can relate. Hopefully we can all focus on the bigger picture and remember to love one another, forgive one another and pray for eachother instead of hurting the church. I would also like to thank god for St Pauls and for Fr George, all the priests I have talked to, the youth, and all who are involved with helping me grow, learn and live with some spiritual guidance. It has made a great difference. God bless you all. Thankyou
Nobody, I know of what you speak about to be true as I have attended St Paul’s and have witnessed first hand of what you wrote about. I agree, something needs to be done.
Neverforget, The church has done much for me also like you, and I don’t want to see things get out of control. If the state of the church keeps going the way it is, do you think our kids would seriously want to have any part of it? Many already chose not to.
As society gets “smarter” and more “brainwashed” with western world traditions, if the church is not strong enough to draw our kids in and keep them in, once the elders pass on and the next generation take control, how many members do you think St. Pauls will have in comparison?
Ixthis888, you wrote “ I asked myself the question, why would an educated “Bishop” respond so ‘abruptly’ to a youth …and I tried to put as many possibilities forward … For someone in an ‘authority’ position to reply so ‘bluntly’ perhaps suggests that the person/s could have been previously “annoying him”.” …………Are you being judgemental or do you know more than you lead on. You stated you don’t know the bishop yet your posts imply the opposite. Let’s say you are correct and that he was “annoying” him for a response. Is this a response that can be excused from a holy man? A response which I regard as blasphemous. Is this how Jesus would have answered a youth if he was “annoying him” with a legitimate question??
Ixthis888, I thought your bee story was rude to tell someone this story and ask them which group of friends they want to be apart of. Bees are almost deaf, so if you say lets be like the bee, does this mean lets not listen or care, lets bury our heads in the sand whilst our leaders continue to travel the wrong pathway, as long as you(the worker bee) land on the flower and take the pollen back to your hive?(to the queen bee) (Pollen being the metaphor for money, and hive the church).
Let’s have a closer look at your story. There are different types of flies as there are bees. For Flies, some of them are the blow fly, the black horse fly, the Australian robber fly and funnily enough, a large bee fly in the genus Bombylius. Adult bee fly’s drink nectar and their larva is a parasite in the nest of solitary bees. So you have the pretend bees which are actually flies and are damaging to the Bees nests.
Again different types of bees exist such as Queen Bee, Worker bee and the drone bee. Bees are called Social Insects. Worker bees guard the entrance to the colony’s home, which is called a hive. They cool it by fanning their wings. Other workers collect nectar to make honey. Each worker bee has a stinger and uses it in defence of itself and the hive.
I see the group behind BW as the Bees, the hive being the Church and they are the workers trying to protect it. Why do the negative commenter’s want to suppress the truth? Jesus only spoke of the truth and certainly did not require their permission to humiliate them. Granted that the group at BW are not Jesus, but they do seek the truth, not trying to oppress the truth like many here want.
People are posting teachings and making them favourable to their own ideas just like I have turned the bee story around from Ixthis888 and made it more favourable to my point.
What we need is less stories and more discussion of the point of this web site, and the direction the church as a whole is heading long term. Should it keep flying on this path with people burying their heads in the sand or should we demand change!
There is nothing more annoying than the loud blow fly and I hate the smell of fly spray.
George…
This is not a National Geographic forum… but thank you for all those facts regardless
I am wondering why Christ didn’t tell me what kind of grape i was in His vineyard. Am I a from the
* Vitis riparia, a wild vine of North America, sometimes used for winemaking and for jam. (the jam is a metaphor for being sweet)
or am I of the
* Vitis labrusca family, the North American table grape juice grapevines sometimes used for wine (a metphor for intoxicating on goodness)
(yay for Wikipedia)
IXthis888 pardon the malevolence directed at you. Your words are obviously filled with love for Christ and for our Church. Whether you know our bishop or not, is not the issue. User George seems to have misread all of your comments. I enjoyed all of them, in particular the comparison that we are all flies. In fact… how many of our members cleanse our hands let alone our souls before approaching the body and blood of Christ?
User ‘neverforget’… your recollection is a beautiful portrayal of many of our stories… the innocent ignorance and refusal for idle gossip as children and young adults is what got us here. I enjoyed your suggestion that we not be whisked away by politics.
YBIC
Kingfly (yes i realise my name is different)
“You see, none of us choose our end really. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son. But remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God you cannot say “but I was told by others to do thus” or that “virtue was not convenient at the time.” This will not suffice. Remember that.” - King Baldwin IV
Beloved In Christ,
Firstly, let me take this opportunity to express the great sadness I feel at the state of affairs regarding this website. I am compelled to write this sorrowful post because as Orthodox Christians, we simply do not slander, defame or cause any unnecessary harm to our beloved in Christ, whether justified or not.
Lord have mercy.
Firstly to my brother Joe Matar… All of us are afforded Christian love and Christian charity. The commandment that Christ gave us before His Ascension was to “Love one another as I have loved you”. This love is different to other forms of love because, this love is unconditional. To love everyone without any conditions, no matter who they are and no matter what they have done… even our enemies. This love is what sets us apart from the rest of the Christian world. Christian love is the foundation of all virtues, and the root of holiness, which is what we all ought to aspire to. It is with this love that we address our clergy, Bishop’s included. It is with this love that you should humbly accept the Bishop’s reply to your letter.
A few Questions I have for you.
1. How do you think that the Metropolitan feels? Is it right for you to ask questions to the Bishop in private, yet you broadcast his answer to the world?
2. How do you thing the People of St Paul’s feel about this? How does Fr George feel about this?
3. How are you feeling? Deep inside if you are uncertain or uneasy, it is because this has become a scandal. A controversy.
4. Without a spiritual father (you have stated verbally to me that you don’t have one), without a rock solid relationship with Christ, the Mother of God, your patron saint Joseph, your holy guardian angel, and in general, without striving for the heavenly realm, are you in any way equipped or authorised to police or judge anyone, let alone a Hierarch?
Joseph, imagine that your own flesh father berates you in your home privately. Would you post it on the internet? Of coarse not because you love your father. But remember the unconditional love I referred to earlier…. this is what we live our lives by.
Our Metropolitan is not looking to put any unnecessary financial strain on any of our Churches. His ideas are born out of pure love for his Church and his people. The idea of a school and a child care centre is brilliant for a few reasons; I shall list some:
1. A child care centre cancels out the dependency for a function hall since, a constant income is generated weekly.
2. A school will fulfil the needs of the younger generations since, spiritual education will be at the forefront of the curriculum.
The Metropolitan is a very passionate man, just listen to his sermons. Haven’t you noticed that they are almost always said in English? Even when our Arab speaking parents complain to the Metropolitan about everything being in English, he persists because he loves the youth and sees the youth as the future. The future is you, it is I. It is the youth of the Antiochian Orthodox Church that will be carrying the holy legacy of right believing Christianity. This is love. This is what the Bishop has said, yet hardly anyone has understood the Bishop’s love.
Finally, I would like to express something deeply intimate with you. I have complete empathy for you because I too have been on the receiving end of tough love from our Metropolitan. At the time I was disillusioned with him BUT…. what I failed to realize at the time was that I had become so proud in my approach to the Bishop, I had elevated myself to the status of judge and therefore god. Christ sent me my Metropolitan to humble me because, I wouldn’t humble myself. I thank Christ for that day, and I am indebted to our Bishop for teaching me humility.
Now is your opportunity. God loved you Joseph because, he has put a choice before you. Decommission this website, place you faith in Christ since he can see the state of our Church & He has permitted things to be the way that they are. Put your hands together with our Metropolitans hands, and Fr George’s hand, and all of the youth’s hands… and let’s build a lasting legacy that provides orthodox Christianity to the people of Australia…
Learn from my mistake and humble yourself before the Lord.
Your unworthy and sinful servant in Christ
Reader Joseph Elcheikh
To admin
As you have attempted to answer my questions you have fallen way short of proving who you are, and this is for the whole of the admin team, as it would be sad if this team is from outside our parish St Paul and are attempting to destroy the amazing work that St Paul church and our Bishop have done over the years.
You say it is hypocritical that we ask you to reveal the names of who is in your admin team of (bishop watch Webb site) when we stay anonymous, well you are the team that put this site up, sure if you are credible of the St Paul parish we will be able to reveal our selves also but if this is just 1 person with the backing of others outside the parish then they will have to be held accountable for there actions.
I have read your letter many times over and I believe it is a poorly written letter that is truly unworthy of a reply. Let’s look at the points why it is unworthy of a reply.
1. You start the letter by saying that this is your opinion and the opinion of many.
(poor opinion)No proof of any other person available in fact everyone at St Paul love the charity work they do for the church and believe it or not this has been going on for years in all churches, every one strives to build the lords house with all its glory and they are rewarded in ways that you obviously don’t understand, you may think that you do but truly you don’t.
2. You say to the bishop that you understand his ambition to build churches and valuable community structures to serve the community and in the next paragraph you state that this leads to aggressive financial agenda instead of spirituality.
(poor again) how can the Bishop be doing anything bad with his mind set on building churches which answers your spirituality question and have in mind to build valuable community structures which are needed (Did the Bishop put his hand in your pocket and take the money for these projects?) Your question to the bishop should be how can I help my community achieve these great ideas.
3. Then you question the bishop about a fundraising party and how could the church have such an event in such a time of fasting.
(Poor again) was it not Jesus that said when asked ( how could you heal on the Sabbath the Sabbath is a day for the lord didn’t he answer them by saying you vultures and broods any one of you would take his ass to drink on the Sabbath, in your words FUNDRAISING what was this fundraising for it was for the church for the house of god, and how hypocritical of you to mention alcohol, (tell the truth tell all who was serving the alcohol?)
To finish I believe the bishop answered this letter in the only way it should have been answered although I agree with the bishop that there should not have been an answer to such a poor thought letter. No high authority would take note of such a letter ( Not a King, Nor a President nor a Prime Minister) as you have been told before go through the ranks to get your opinion through just like everyone else you are no different.
I’m glad to see that this blog will end today and I also hope this web site will end too as this will be my last comment and will not visit this site till it is credible and accountable.
Dear Friends,
May I congratulate Joseph in his wise decision to close this topic tonight. There is no doubt in my mind that these issues need to be aired. We have had sufficient time to discuss this matter, and may I say in a quite civilised way. The lessons that I take it from it are several 1) Put your faith ONLY in God 2)Clergy are fallible human beings that also require the medicine of repentance 3) People in the church are liable to avoid facing the fact that clergy misbehave 4) Obedience is the fruit that comes from a self giving pastorate exercised with charity 5) God is the object our worship not the church, the patriarch the priest or the people 6) Always jusdge an argument or a statement on it’s OWN merits and not on who happens to say it 6) The church has nothing to fear from the truth being told 7)Paray for the bishop, the priests and deacons, the monastics and all the believers that we may witness Jesus more courageously
The church should be more accountable than a worldly institution not less ……..and last but not least get the people to bring their own food to share after Liturgy so the kitchen working ladies can offer their prayers with the rest of the congregation!
When a person writes a complaint and takes some trouble to express it he usually has a fire in his heart. It is best to calm down the fire with water rather than pour petrol on it. Kind words heal.
Some years ago I made a complaint to the headmaster at the school which my children attended. He thanked me for my letter and made an appointment to discuss my concerns. At the appointment he again thanked me and said that I was the only person to express such concerns but for every person that writes a letter there would be at least 100 others who felt the same way but didn’t bother to write, my views were not those of the majority but they would be taken into consideration when the final decision was made. I left feeling that I had been heard and had done all I could.
I think that people in this day and age are rather used to their concerns being handled in a similar way to this.
I think the method of handling concerns is really the issue here. May we all learn from this debate to handle each other with care.
Whoru06, It appears you need help with clarification of the objective of this web site. It is not to bring down St. Paul’s and Not to disgrace St Paul’s. It is aimed at the promotion of accountability of those in leadership positions. Unfortunately due to Joseph being from St. Paul’s, it seems to have been interpreted by some posters to be about St Paul’s. Read the website to clarify what this is about before posting the same question again.
Whoru06, you also say “To finish I believe the bishop answered this letter in the only way it should have been answered…”I think your alone in this as even the posts that don’t agree with Josephs views are not agreeing to this, but trying to work out why the bishop responded in this way. I’m wasting my time even writing this to you.
My initial concern is that the perceived norm to an issue is to leave it alone and it will go away. Issues need to be raised and answered accordingly in the appropriate manner.
Joseph writes, “……….imagine that your own flesh father berates you in your home privately. Would you post it on the internet?…” the Bishop is a public figure and this is not the way to behave when you have a high power position, and not a good example to set for the upcoming generation.
I am very disappointed that when a youth member asks a question internally, he gets no answer. When it is escalated to the Bishop, he get the letter that he did. Once the issue is made public, it had made people sit up and listen and possibly appears to be the only way to get answers. The Youth is an important building block for any church and Joseph could be an important contributor to St Paul’s in the years to come.
I support the truth and I have not heard one good reason why this web site should be shut down yet, but I think it’s a good idea to close posting as the posts are deviating from the issue at hand.
What a very disappointing post by Whoru06. I’m saddened to see that your interpretation of scripture is so misguided, especially for a member of the committee.
You wrote
“3. Then you question the bishop about a fundraising party and how could the church have such an event in such a time of fasting.
(Poor again) was it not Jesus that said when asked ( how could you heal on the Sabbath the Sabbath is a day for the lord didn’t he answer them by saying you vultures and broods any one of you would take his ass to drink on the Sabbath, in your words FUNDRAISING what was this fundraising for it was for the church for the house of god”
Healing on the Sabbath by Christ the most high is hardly comparable to running parties during the fasting period. The fasting period is for our spiritual nourishment, reflection of ones actions and repentance of sin. The Holy fathers of the church have given us these rules to follow and they are intended for our salvation. I’m sure that from an academic perspective you are alone in your view which justifies Church parties during the Great Lent. How can you celebrate whilst we hold vigil before the crucification of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.
Whilst I hold you captive to this post I will attempt to preach to you about the Acts of the Apostles. Notice here they are called the Acts, not convenient options. The learning begins;
Acts Ch 6
1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
As you are a member of the committee I pray that you recognise how this teaching is as relevant today as it was nearly 2000 years ago and that you apply it to the St Paul’s parish. I encourage you to help liberate your Priest who works tirelessly for his people from his worldly commitments by directing some of the money collected from the people to the Parish Priest as a stipend. How fruitful could he be if he were but only liberated from the burden of supporting himself financially and serving the parish. Imagine what he could do for you and your family, for the youth in the Parish and for the sick the suffering then poor and the homeless.
There was a time when we could not afford to support a priest financially (Even that argument is debateable). Now however with the church debt almost fully repaid we can certainly afford to liberate the Priest.
In saying this, I have detracted from the purpose of this site however I must confess that you have angered me with your post. Forgive me brother if I have sinned against you.
Love
BIC
We thank you all for your contributions to this post. We have officially closed all comments on this issue. We will endeavor to summarize the key contributions that were made in the coming days.
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May God bless you all,
The team at BishopWatch